To solve a problem, an analysis is required to determine what the elements of the problem are. Pipes burst, mainly, because they freeze and water expands when it freezes creating local pressures that normal metal pipes cannot withstand. So solving the problem requires a system either to prevent the freezing of the water in the pipes or having pipes that can withstand the pressures of freezing water. A third possibility is a safety system that acts as a secondary barrier for the piping system on the same concept of the double hulled oil tankers so that a failure of the prime container permits the secondary container to prevent general damage - the piping system could be enclosed in an emergency waterproof sleeve that would minimize the damage and set off a main valve closure to close down the system. It sounds to me that it would be expensive.

Good points. There are electric wire heaters that can be sued to keep pipes warm. One can also imagine pairing pipes to use the hot water pipe to keep the cold water one from freezing. As for the notification system, I note that you have a long time delay between freezing and the problem. Only several days later when the ice melts does the water leak out. Initially, the ice seals the hole. Thus somehting that detected a change in water pressure and simply notified you that there was a freeze in the line would be a big help. But what I am most curious about is the secondary barrier approach. Not sure why a double-lined pipe would be so expensive. Lining could be mateiral other than metal. Wouldn't have to be used everywhere, just near outside walls and for cold water.

Under normal circumstances. running water has a lower freezing point than static cold water, so the freeze may occur if something stops the flow. Perhaps under prefreezing conditions a safety valve would allow at least some of the cold water to remain in motion to flush out the cold section. If the hot and cold water pipes were in heat transfer proximity, the heating bills migh become excessive over a cold period. If the secondary barrier were within the freezing pipe it probably would be no help in preventing the rupture as most materials have the same vulnerability to fracture under freezing conditions. I had conceived of an empty container sleeve which could, at least temporarily, contain the overflow while an emergency (perhaps electric) heating system would come into operation to permit the normal flow to continue until conditions would permit a repair of the main system. This, at minimum, would minimize secondary damage to the rest of the house. But it would make initial installation of the pipe system more expensive.The resistance wire pads wrapped on pipes could be activated by thermostatic sensors if there was sufficient buffer time to provide a safe interim before pipe rupture. The thermostat would also be more economical than keeping the electric heating on continuously.

I'd provide "expansion room" for the ice. Insert a piece of closed-cell foam the length of the pipe. That shouldn't be too expensive to manufacture or install. It can be, say, 10% of the x-section of the pipe.

When the ice forms, the increased volume compresses the foam instead of bursting your pipes.

Now that that's off my chest, I think Barry's approach could be made workable without TOO much extra effort/ expense by lining the pipe at installation with a flexible tube. The trick would be to avoid joining the liners together -- an installation nightmare, I'm afraid. So, don't do that.

Instead, at both ends, cement the end of the liner OUT to the inner wall of the pipe. That way, you avoid the nightmare, and water-tightness would be preserved without joining the liners. Cementing the ends "out" like that would be no picnic, but do-able.

Pipe like that could even come from the factory, but of course, when it's cut to length, you need to do one end in the field anyway. Can't do the whole length -- if it's cemented down all around, it becomes a part of the pipe -- likely to break when the pipe does. Hence, only the ends should be cemented. But all-in-all, I'd rather prevent the breakage with the closed cell foam idea above.

If either of these strikes you as a "possible", let me know, and I'll move it to its own space with a link back here. That way it gets publicly evaluated by the WhyNot.net crowd.

There is a danger of foam being compressed only once and then, unless it can re-expand, becoming useless unless the entire pipe system is renewed. Also, if it fractures and breaks up, the pieces could clog all sorts of places un the pipe system. But the concept my be viable in enclosing sealed flexible plastic tubing inside the pipe that could collapse under expanding ice pressure and regain its original volume when the ice melts.

From your response, I see that I neglected an important detail -- I meant non-rigid closed-cell foam! I agree, a rigid foam would have the problems you cite.

The non-rigid, closed-cell foams I am familiar with are pretty elastic -- very little "danger of foam being compressed only once." The trapped air gives them excellent recovery.

I chose closed-cell foams over a single, sealed tube because if any given cell gets a leak, the impact on the performance is negligeable, whereas if the tube gets a leak and fills with water, it is of no use at all. Plus, you don't have to seal the foam: by definition, it comes that way.

As far as form, I envisioned (but, again, failed to express in my posting) a circular cross-section "rope" of closed-cell polyethylene or something. If any pieces should break off, they wouldn't have any single dimension large enough to clog the pipe.

As a side benefit, it would act to reduce "water hammer" as well.

Sorry for the confusion.

It turns out that something akin to Paron's idea is used in swimming pools. People throw logs into swimmings pools that (for reasons I don't quite get) are not so easy to drain. Without the logs, the pool would crack when the water freezes. But with the logs, the logs get crushed. In this way, the logs act like foam. Not clear how many times the logs can get crushed.

Another idea suggested to me by David Gerber was trying to detect freezing by a change in the frequency of the pipes. With a frozen segment, the pipes would vibrate differently and this might be detectable.

I believe a couple companies (Watercop is one at awatercop.home.att.net) offer products that shut off a water valve water if a pipe breaks or if the temperature of the pipe drops to a predetermined level. Sensors detect either water or temperature and signal the valve via wireless transmitter.

Simple...

In the pipe - you fill the bottom 20% (exact amount to be calculated based on water's expansion and gells contraction) with a smooth soft compressionable compound (like a gel sole for a shoe insert) This could be done very easily to current pipes simply by placing the pipes flat and having said gell heated to a liquid viscosity.

The said flat pipes would be placed in a tank, the level of liquidized gell is raised till it fills said percentage. Then allowed to cool. Pipes are removed and vwalla you have a water pipe that won't burst when freezing.

Usually the frozen part is localized, but the pipe cracks because ice expands, and water is virtually incompressible, creating a tremendous pressure. If there could be a pressure relief valve on the pipe somewhere, it may solve the problem. I am thinking of something like what is found on a pressure cooker, or a boiler. I think the valve could be set so as to pass a little water when the pressure became too high, then seal again afer a drop. There could be a "drip pan" to avoid any water stains. Such a valve could be inserted in the line almost anywhere to good effect.

How about designing the long tube part of the freeze faucet with corrugated sides along the length of the tube. This would allow for expansion. This portion could be made of a material, even metal, with a spring action which would return to the original shape after thawing and be ready for next time.

My name is Cliff Holland I am a owner with R/HLLC which makes PipeWatchMan. Our product is sold through New Products.

PipeWatchMan can be used on cold water outside lines and hot and cold inside water lines.

The unit looks like a screw on nozzle. It has a built in sensor that opens small micro valve before water freezes. It will allow small amount of water to flow until warmer water is sensed. this is the outside PW-35 unit that retails for 15.95

The inside unit PW-80 is screwed onto any sink. We provide the adapter required to screw unit on. This unit requirs hot water. When it senses a temp of 90degrees F the unit closes mirco valve. When temp cools down to around 80degrees F the unit opens mirco valve and water will run until it sees the 90degree temp again. It will go on for ever like this until you turn water supply off.

The PW-35 works for any outside line you want to keep clear. The inside PW-80 works for any trouble line or for when you are going to be gone for extended time during cold temps.

Nothing extra is required like batt. or electricity.

I enjoyed your talk on this problem. It is a 500 million dollar problem that I think I have a answer for.

contact me at cdhlsu7@hotmail.com rhllc2@hotmail.com

Cliff Holland

geesh, people. just buy some of that foam pipe insulation at the local hardware store. or just fill in the holes that are letting the cold air in. prob left the basement door open

There are things that do this (as stated in previous comments), it just needs to be standard on all piping. The real problem is all the existing piping.

From someone that dose plumbing for a liveing I can tell you that non of these idea's will work because to connect copper pipe you need to solder them. At over 600deg F foam, rubber, or any thing thats melts WILL not work.

The device most be threaded on separately.

I was thinking for like 1 story buildings or trailers the pipes underneith sould just be placed in the cement so even if they do bust it wouldent do anything to the flow.

Wubby, I forgot about that. My original idea was a length of closed-cell foam internal to the pipe, with the ends cemented down. I was thinking of threaded pipe, don't know why.

For soldered pipe, I guess my idea would get too complicated -- step back the ends? use a standoff to keep the ends away from the wall? Yuk.

Well, I recant that one -- I was wrong.

How about an insulating sleeve around the outside of a section of the pipe, with a temp sensor under the insulation? If the sensor stays at 32 F. for more than 5 min., sends a signal to either: shutoff and drain valves or: a small valve at the far end to keep a tricle running. The whole thing could be mechanical or electrical -- whichever is appropriate to the situation.

Ron

Barry, Your idea for a closed cell foam tube would work. It just needs to have a threaded end and a seal to keep the water out of the ?expansion chamber?. Also you would need a way to adjust for varying water pressures. Perhaps a spring with a screw to adjust the tention. Something like this: 3/4" Female pipe thread-rubber washer-SS plate-spring-SS plate-screw-end cap inside a 3/4" copper pipe about 6-8" long. The spring should be preset for the force ov the freezing water. Good idea, I think you should run with it.

opps miss read that last one make that paron.

Everyone seems fixated on the inside of the pipe. Why not wrap the outside of the pipe with a flexible, slightly expandable material, almost like a wet suit ( but not neoprene.) IF the pipe bursts, this will expand slightly, but stretch enough to keep everything contained. You'd need it to expand a little, enough to contain the burst, but not so much that you have a big water balloon around the pipe, which would eventually pop. Perhaps a double-wrap: the interior is an expandable, sealed rubber material, and the exterior is constructed almost like a Chinese finger trap, that will expand to maybe twice its original diameter, then lock at that size to hold everything in.